"Civilians might not like it, or even understand" is not an attempt to exclude civilians from the conversation, it's just an observation that civilians are unlikely to understand the complexities of the justice system internal to the armed forces. I'm a civilian, but I understand that joining the military means you are legally subject to additional laws and codes which are enforced completely by and within the armed forces.
It must be possible to understand that what Manning did was both the right thing to do and a clear violation of the armed forces code he agreed to uphold. Unlike civilian law, the armed forces must place a premium on obedience. People volunteer for and agree to these rules, so the outrage isn't as warranted.
> I'm a civilian, but I understand that joining the military means you are legally subject to additional laws and codes which are enforced completely by and within the armed forces.
Nobody here, as far as I can understand, is actually questioning that the UCMJ had jurisdiction so while your understanding there is appreciated, it was never really in question...
The issue is a conflation of legality and morality. Conflating the two, then asserting that civilians may not understand and are unequipped to discuss the two separately, is toxic to discussion and society as a whole. It is an attempt to remove civilians from the discussion, a discussion that they absolutely must be apart of.
As much as some people may wish it, this ain't Starship Troopers.
The OP said this isn't rule of law, it's savage reprisals. The counter to that was that it is military law, with an aside that civilians don't usually appreciate the difference.
It's a little obnoxious to be accused of conflating things one has explicitly separated, but I suppose on this topic those that are outraged are mainly here to vent rather than discuss, and there's nothing wrong with that, so I think I'll bow out here.
Perhaps that is vague, but to me that is clearly a statement about a distinct lack of justice. He obviously isn't saying that the UMCJ doesn't exist or that Manning does not fall under it; that would just be silly.
In an immoral legal system, justice is fleeting. He is accusing them of, not 'not existing', nor being incorrect, but rather of rendering a verdict that deserves no respect.
That's how I read it anyway.
Edit: His (much later) comment here (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6251625) indicates to me that he understands this situation just fine. "I'm not disputing that Manning broke the laws of the military.... ...I don't see how you can defend the laws and regulations of an organization...."
I agree with this. The proper function of a military court is to examine compliance with military law, not to pass judgement on ethics outside of that law.
The function of civil authority, say a moral President, something I hope to live to see, would be to pardon Manning, overruling the military justice sentence in the context of a greater good.
Clearly, this will not happen. Obama will simply wash his hands - not explicitly, though. The media will never even ask the question.
So basically, not only is this true: "Fuck you. It doesn't take a military mind to understand the difference between right and wrong and how little either has to do with institutional rules."
..but the more extreme "It TAKES a civilian mind to understand the difference between right and wrong" is also true? If the military is unable to consider morality itself, then we must rely on civilians to call them out. Accusing civilians of being incapable of doing that then puts the military above any sense of morality. Disturbing, to say the least.
Anybody can point to this outcome and say, "this is unjust/immoral," military or not. In order to say "this outcome is illegal/improper procedure" you have to have some domain knowledge.
> "Anybody can point to this outcome and say, "this is unjust/immoral,""
That is what he was doing (see for clarification: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6251625(, and that is why a reply of "civilians may not understand" got a strongly negative response.
It must be possible to understand that what Manning did was both the right thing to do and a clear violation of the armed forces code he agreed to uphold. Unlike civilian law, the armed forces must place a premium on obedience. People volunteer for and agree to these rules, so the outrage isn't as warranted.