Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

[IANPG]

Y-Combinator's policy requires all notification to be physically delivered - i.e. US Postal Service or UPS or another delivery service is acceptable. Email is not acceptable - and presumably fax is not either, since no number is listed.

This means:

1. It will take several days for most takedown requests to be acted upon, by which time material will probably have rolled off the front page.

2. There is significant documentation when an entity pursues takedown in less than good faith - and if it came via USPS there could be substantial penalties for any fraud.

3. It makes bulk takedowns more difficult because each notice is required to provide adequate documentation.

In other words, Y-Combinator places a meaningful burden on those claiming violation of copyright, and I suspect that this creates enough friction to eliminate many claims - making HN better, and letting YC staff do more important work.



Are we reading the same policy? I'm looking at https://news.ycombinator.com/dmca.html and I see a fax number of "Fax: 650.360.3189" and "please send a written notice (by fax or regular mail) to the Designated Agent at the address below".

The January 2013 copy of the policy on archive.org lists the same contact information.


I missed it. Faxing still creates friction and significantly so for any attempt at bulk requests.


> I missed it. Faxing still creates friction and significantly so for any attempt at bulk requests.

Does it? It's pretty easy to spool up a lot of faxes if you have an account with an email-to-fax service.


The faxes still come through serially with the receiving machine able to set the maximum rate of transmission. With one phone line and four minutes per fax that's a maximum of 360 requests per day. Send some long outgoing faxes and availability for receiving notices goes down.

In any event, spooling up a lot of faxes would tie up YC's fax machine, not YC's staff.


Couldn't you just use some online faxing service? That would prevent the 360 request/day limit you mentioned. I don't think any place sending mass DMCA take downs would be sending faxes themselves.


I believe his point was that the bottleneck was on the receiving side, not the sending side.


If it was from the one party, then that could be reasonably seen as trying to disrupt their service.


I'm sure that's when the machine would become unplugged and the fax option stricken from the record.


Y-Combinator's policy requires all notification to be physically delivered - i.e. US Postal Service or UPS or another delivery service is acceptable. Email is not acceptable - and presumably fax is not either, since no number is listed.

I'd still be interested to know the legal basis for that policy. I asked about this once before, because having read the actual text of the DMCA it doesn't seem like such a policy would be sufficient to achieve the safe harbour protection, but I'm not a lawyer and I don't think I ever saw an answer on the earlier discussion. If anyone at YC would be willing to share any information they can about their rationale, it might be of general interest to anyone running sites with user-created content, which surely applies to many people reading HN.


From the DMCA:

    DESIGNATED AGENT- The limitations on liability established in this
    subsection apply to a service provider only if the service provider 
    has designated an agent to receive notifications of claimed 
    infringement described in paragraph (3), by making available through 
    its service, including on its website in a location accessible to the 
    public, and by providing to the Copyright Office, substantially the 
    following information:

    the name, address, phone number, and electronic mail address of the agent

    ...

    To be effective under this subsection, a notification of claimed 
    infringement must be a written communication provided to the 
    designated agent of a service provider
This seems to suggest that an e-mail would be sufficient (it is a writing and it is provided to the agent).

At the same time, the actual form to designate an agent implies that the notification should be delivered by mail:

http://www.copyright.gov/onlinesp/agents/n/news_ycomb.pdf

That said, whether YC ignores a notice it gets by e-mail because it doesn't believe it was delivered properly, or because it simply chooses to ignore the notice, the result would seemingly be the same -- YC can be sued for copyright infringement.

If the motivation for complying (or appearing to comply) with the DMCA is to gain the liability protection, YC would want to be easy to contact and act on the notice no matter how they receive it.

If YC isn't actually worried about being sued, which seems reasonable for a site that hosts nothing but minimal discussion and external links, then urging potential notifiers to jump through hoops makes more sense. That minimizes the amount of notices they have to deal with, and their impact on the site.


Fax is listed as a delivery method and a number is given. https://news.ycombinator.com/dmca.html


I've always been curious if this (mail only, no email) is valid under the DMCA.


It must be a "written communication", but the same subsection also requires an "electronic mail address" for the designated agent.

You may have a hard time arguing they meant to require an email address, but at the same time, stuff sent there would not be valid.


I'm willing to bet that Google receive some of the best legal advice on the interpretation of the DMCA, and it seems to me that they do not normally accept notices via email.

From Google's old DMCA page[1] (cached 13 April 2013 - now directs to an automated system):

> To file a notice of infringement with us, you must provide a written communication (by fax or regular mail and not by email, except by prior agreement)

From Google's current support pages [2]:

> Send the written communication to the following address: <postal address> OR fax to: <fax number>

> To file a counter notification with us, you must provide a written communication (by fax or regular mail -- not by email, except by prior agreement)

[1] http://www.google.co.uk/dmca.html [2] http://support.google.com/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=112...


FWIW: I work for google, though i'm absolutely not speaking for them.

I'd say you have a reasonable argument either way, my point was more on the side of "A judge may disagree".

Hence "you may have a hard time arguing".


I will note that YouTube accepts DMCA takedown requests via email and the process is rather efficient.


That is probably in their interest, since they do get lots of valid takedown notices. For them it would be easier to streamline the process with email.


Mmmm, I wonder how "oops, it was caught in the spam filter" would work out? At least with mail delivery you can have confirmation of receipt. With email what's the guarantee that the person in charge would look at it?


The recipient has no obligation to act on these notices in the first place. Lost in the spam filter has the same result as purposeful inaction -- the service provider hasn't (by choice or otherwise) taken advantage of the offer of limited liability they could accept by disabling access to the listed content without a court order.


It really shows how badly the DMCA has been drafted then. It never actually defines what "electronic mail" means. This could actually be defined as a fax, because that transmits "mail", "electronically".


"So sue me" creates friction. If sending the request by mail or fax is too much trouble, arguing in court that emails must be accepted probably isn't attractive either.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: