At London trainstations, police asks you to notify them if you're a train spotter. That way they won't bother you (unless you start taking pictures of the infrastructure instead of trains) and you can help them reporting suspicious behaviour (as someone waiting for trains most of the time).
It's all about communication. If people see the police as their partner, they'll be happy to help them do their job (at least in the UK).
> If people see the police as their partner, they'll be happy to help them do their job (at least in the UK).
Unfortunately, that ship sailed long ago when the police stopped treating the community as their partner and started treating people with suspicion by default.
I don’t think it’s fair to make a blanket statement like that, at least in the US where the local police system is hyper-fragmented. There more police-community relationships than there are police + communities, so there’s a ton of variation.
Annecdote: I’m very happy with the local police in my community.
There are of course correlations and general trends that can be observed. In recent years there’s been a lot of attention on the disproportionate rate of police shootings involving racial minorities. That’s a problem. But it’s not an all police departments by all communities by all times problem.
>At London trainstations, police asks you to notify them if you're a train spotter
Isn't this solved fairly easily?
"Whatcha upto mate?"
"Photographing the trains. I like trains"
"Oh one of those. Off I go!"
I don't know how that interaction would go in the UK, but I think in the states it would start fairly aggressively (demanding ID/barking orders), which in turn makes people who like to photograph infrastructure for artistic reasons dig their heels in, say they have a right to photograph in public, and refuse additional questions.
In Japan, I took photographs of trains, buses, railway lines with no one on them, and the police just ignored me or smiled and gave me a thumbs up.
Interestingly, if I had to rate the approachability of cops, I'd put Japan > UK >> USA. And tbh, that's far down the list. In America, you try to avoid the police, even if you're law abiding. In the UK, you might have a chat.
After the morons started driving vans into crowds and attacking them with knives they stepped up armed officer patrols at busy times in my local city center.
My stepson was frightened as he'd never seen anyone wandering around with a gun before so I took him over and said hello and he was asking the copper all the awkward questions a young kid would :).
After that he started waving at them (and they have always waved back).
It's sad we have to have heavily armed officers on foot patrol but by and large they are damn good at their job.
Also the criteria for been an armed officer is quite strict, you have to be a full officer after probation (2 years) and a volunteer and physically fit then you get extra training.
If you do have to shoot someone you are automatically took out the field until the IPCC has gone over it in detail.
It's not perfect, nothing human is but it's a good balance.
The police and the citizenry have massively different relationships in the UK and US. UK police appear to be far more trusted and liked by their citizens than American ones are.
Also, they appear to shoot their citizens less often, which probably helps.
Being a cop is a much more dangerous job than being a programmer, but it’s far from the most dangerous job around. Bartenders (1.6x), taxi drivers (1.7x), landscapers (1.5x), miners (2.6x), roofers (4x), fishers (7x), and loggers (9x) are all more likely to die on the job than cops, and none of these professions have developed the siege mentality that cops have.
Furthermore, the public image of patrol officer death typically involves violent shootouts with criminals, but in reality death by homicide only accounts for about half of patrol officer deaths, with death by automobile making up the rest. For 2013 10.8 officers died per 100,000, with 49% dying by car accident, 45% by homicide, and 6% by other causes.
This pales in comparison to the homicide rate for pregnant women, with up to 10.5 women being murdered per 100,000[0]. This means that a pregnant woman is as likely to be murdered as a cop is likely to die on the job from all causes, and said pregnant woman is twice as likely to be murdered than any cop.
I'm not sure that not being armed is that much different. Even if armed, if the principles behind the force are well set and you trust (based on facts and experiences) that that weapon will not leave the holster without need, it makes very little difference.
Just to give an example, I live in Serbia and policemen are armed. Police is far from clean, corruption is present as everywhere and there are obvious ties between crime and police. However, when it comes to the small guy, on the streets, on public events or encounters with an officer I can't say you should be cocerned with your own safety. Sometimes they are armed with rifles, when riskier events take place. Sometimes they are not the most pleasant. But I don't remember the last time I heard an officer discharge a weapon. Funny as it may seem, nobody wants dead bodies in his career. Pieceful de-escalation is a usual crisis outcome. There are a lot of veterans, PTSD sufferers and desperate people around here. Just think of the madness if police charges everywhere guns blazing... This went off topic...
Well the US citizens also carry guns a lot more often than the UK citizens.
So there’s your answer. But then constitutional rights yada yada. Just the idea that the other party had a deadly weapon, escalates things really fast.
In many countries the advice is not to photograph infrastructure (bridges, dams, etc.), as it is illegal.
Examples:
> Photography: Taking photographs of UAE military facilities, sensitive civilian sites, airports, some beaches, or foreign diplomatic missions – including the U.S. Embassy or Consulate General – may result in arrest, detention, and/or prosecution by local authorities. Travelers should be aware of signs which indicate where photography is prohibited. Note that it is illegal to take photographs of other people without their consent. In addition, engaging in mapping activities, especially mapping that includes the use of GPS equipment, without coordination with UAE authorities, may have the same consequences.
> Photography: Photographing military installations is forbidden. Individuals have been detained and/or had their cameras and film confiscated for taking pictures of hospitals, schools, bridges, industrial sites, and airports. Sites where photography is prohibited are not always marked.
After the 2005 bombings in London, which targeted public transport networks and the people on them, the security services are understandably concerned about similar attacks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings
It’s why we can’t have good things. Someone will abuse the privilege.
Just earlier we had a post about people pulling the emergency brakes on NYC subway cars. For decades it was fine. Suddenly people are causing some chaos.
That’s about it. People will exploit weaknesses and we all lose.
In the article I read, the suspect exited the carriage and went down an employees only tunnel. Those sorts of tunnels seem like a place it's OK to put CCTV, since the general public doesn't even use them.
My city has a beautiful courthouse. You'll be detained and questioned for taking pictures of it. It's not technically illegal, but they'll ruin your day, strongly discouraging you from doing it again.
Terrorist are usually not devious smooth talkers like in the movies. Most will be too nervous to talk to the police naturally, or too frightened to attract police attention by self-reporting their activities, etc. That's the reason why one of the backbones of Israel flight security is just a brief chat with the passengers. In real life, there's no rehearsal, and no director to order a second take if you fail to play it cool.
There's lots of nervous/stressed looking people in airports, at least here in the US. How does the natural state of being stressed/tired from travel or being nervous about dealing with the horrendous TSA/CBP allow an officer to reliably distinguish regular citizens from terrorists?
Some people are naturally anxious/nervous in public and a place like airports with TSA agents strip searching you and ordering you around like cattle can appear to be "suspicious" behavior.
Israeli security isn't like TSA. Everyone gets a short interview with a professional (not some minimum wage worker) where obvious red flags are spotted like a story that sounds rehearsed. If you pass you are assigned a security level based on the interview and other factors that affects how thoroughly you are checked in the remaining procedure.
We found a compromise in our city where plane spotters register with the local police and can be in certain areas outside the airport boundaries.
The program labels itself an "Airport Watch" like a community watch but, really, it's just so everyone is less suspicious of each other. But I suppose if we actually saw something odd we would phone it in between swapping our lenses.
Those sorts of schemes alao exist in the UK even though it's prefectly legal to spot from public land outside an airport.
But there is a disturbing flipside to such groups; I was once 'questioned' by police outside London Gatwick because some members of London Airport Watch had reported me due to my 'Irish' accent. But they gave the impression that such reports were more to harrass and deter non-local enthusiasts. You'd think that airline enthusiasts of all people would be open and inclusive, but sadly not.
I've encountered the same thing. I'm standing on public ground but was continually asked why I didn't join the program. I eventually bought the lanyard so they would leave me alone.
I think it's more about some random outsider going somewhere they shouldn't and wrecking the program for the ones that want it to stay around. It's self-protection.
Ironically it's probably good to have these folks around. If someone breached the perimeter, they might be the ones to raise the alarm - you can't patrol the entire fence.
I knew people who did urban exploration in undergrad, and there were a few times they picked up a payphone to alert about things like water leaks, termites, or when they once ran into someone they suspected was burgling.
Smart institutions know that respecting harmless folks can pay dividends.
It doesn't matter how real a risk it is. It's "suspicious" and that's plenty enough cause to harass people in the post-9/11 security theatre. Nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM, and [almost] nobody ever got fired for being "too cautious".
At this point my baseline assumption is that anything that receives TSA attention is not a real risk. What this is is a concrete thing that they can point to to justify their existence, even if the thing isn't a real threat and shouldn't actually help to justify their existence.
> you know he's a terrorist because he is pointing a telephoto lens at an airplane
I picked up my brother at SFO a few years ago, and walked around outside the airport terminal building to get a good view of the runway and take a picture of the Lufthansa A380 my brother was landing in, when an SUV pulled up with security and asked me what I was doing and told me to go away. Not a restricted area or anything. Maybe I got the benefit of the doubt (not being detained and all) because I just had a smartphone, no telephoto lens.
You can't expect logic from people all the time. Why both making it restricted area if they can have some schmuck in a SUV pull up every time someone enters?
Shady people do wear hoodies. Sometimes non-shady people do, too. But imagine you're a convenience store clerk, are you going to be more suspicious of the person with a hoodie or a person without, all else being equal?
Sometimes people wear hoodies just because they feel self-conscious or don't want to feel exposed or vulnerable. No coincidence that it's mostly teenagers and young people who wear hoodies. That's understandable. But it's also fair for people to be suspicious of people not willing to expose themselves to public scrutiny.
There's a correlation between diverse societies and smiling. Why? Because smiling is a compensatory signal in environments prone to heightened suspicion or stress. Hoodies disrupt this and other social signaling mechanisms. Humans evolved extremely expressive facial signaling mechanisms, afterall, many of which are subconscious.
This really goes to show that 90% of the state security operation is about expanding state power, harassing minorities and setting up a social construction of "good" behavior, and not actually improving public safety.
Thus the word "stereotypical" and the sarcasm quotes around "Arab/Muslim terrorist." That's what people think a terrorist looks like. Of course an actual terrorist would try to blend in as much as possible.
>Shady people do wear hoodies. Sometimes non-shady people do, too.
Hoodies in the UK are more of a class signifier than the US. Some people use them to hide from CCTV (usually young, poor people).
Interestingly I learned this stereotype when I went to go into pub, got told no hoodies, asked why, and then was told oh never mind when they heard my American accent.
I wish hoodies were more accepted for not so young people because they warm my sensitive ears and you can't lose 'em. The latter is very hard on a long enough travel :/
I'm 40+ and I wear hoodies for the same reason as OP - my ears are sensitive to cold, as is the rest of my neck and head. If the temperature starts with a 6 or less, I look like Kenny from South Park while walking down the street. I also work in an office, but I never post on HN, especially while at work. ;-)
Or, you know, it's cold out and the hood keeps their head warm. The fact that there's a great debate over wearing hoodies in a comment section on 'hacker' 'news' for an article about Canadian airports accomidating people taking photos of planes is mildly entertaining though.
Hardly conclusive, but I think the general principle that hoodies disrupt facial signaling and identification is hard to dispute. Also I think it's self-evident that disruption and anonymity is a primary reason (absent weather) they're worn in the first place. That doesn't imply nefarious motivations, but it does correlate with some kinds of nefarious behavior.
Walking into a bank with a ski mask/balaclava isn't a great idea, even if you just came off the slopes. Why deny that? Same basic logic applies to hoodies, notwithstanding that they're much more common and give less reason to be suspicious in most circumstances. That doesn't mean they don't warrant any heightened suspicion whatsoever.
None of this justifies accosting and shooting unarmed people, especially unarmed children, any place. OTOH, telling people, especially kids, that there's nothing wrong with hoodies whatsoever sends the wrong signals about how people should socially engage in their communities and in public; it excuses withdrawal.
Even though I live in California where almost nobody takes off their hat when walking indoors, I've taught my 4-year-old kid to do so and he does so instinctively. (I grew up in the Deep South where it was expected, though I never actually wore hats as a kid.) I did this not because I think anybody else cares or because it intrinsically matters, but because it helps teach him to be comfortably conscientious about how he presents himself in different contexts. I also discourage him from using the hood of a hoodie unless he has good reason to; especially for kids the act of wearing the hood is an act of withdrawal, which is not a good habit to get into, especially in American culture. He won't grow up poor like I did so none of this may ever matter for him--he'll likely always travel in privileged circles. But that's not guaranteed. These life skills might prove to be useful some day.
Don't let our planes get into the wrong hands. If you question it, report it. Call local law enforcement. Report to your airport manager.
And you know he's a terrorist because he is pointing a telephoto lens at an airplane!