It's sickening to think that, despite the ban in Canada, countless innocent anime girls are being abused in Japan every day - many of them children! The UN should apply pressure to get Japan to stop this vile abuse, and import of cartoons into Japan should be banned, as their safety cannot be guaranteed there.
Fictional child pornography does not directly harm children, but it is likely that it does so indirectly by creating demand for actual CP. To me, it seems totally reasonable to make all sexualized depictions of children illegal for this reason.
That's one way to look at it. But there's evidence that access to porn reduces the amount of rape [1]. In light of that, it seems reasonable to ask - how many children are we willing to allow to be raped, to protect our precious anime girls?
>but it is likely that it does so indirectly by creating demand for actual CP
Until there is evidence of that, it seems strange to say that's a conclusion at all, or that it's likely. In fact, Patrick Galbraith's work on how users of fictional CP actually interact with their materials suggests exactly the opposite: they have developed a form of sexuality for the representations themselves - the more fictional, the more real to them. To add to that, the research I've read shows that pornography is not associated with increased rates of sexual assault or rape. If the link isn't even there for regular porn, what would make you say it's "likely" there for cartoon representations?
Furthermore, do we apply this standard elsewhere in society? If there were no research on the link between video games and violence, would you conclude that it is "likely" it indirectly creates a demand for videos of real violence? Is the fact that someone might be spurred on to do a different act sufficient to illegalize the original act which spurred them? I would say not, unless we were to illegalize drugs (for example) because those who partake are likely to be violent? Should we prosecute cannabis users because they create demand for drug cartel products which finance murder? Apple users because they create demand for the appalling treatment of Chinese workers?
Most researchers on the philosophy of law in this area (e.g Suzanne Ost) while obviously opposed to actual child pornography find no philosophical basis in the harm principle to illegalize fictional representations. As such, it's not reasonable at all. You need to justify why you think it's "likely" and just what that standard means. If it cannot be justified, then we may say that any likelihood is sufficient to illegalize any material, but I doubt that's a conclusion you'd want to follow to its extreme.
Finally there's the issue of penalties - isn't punishing someone for something they might do (access real CP) unjust? This seems shockingly close to the notion of pre-crime. To avoid that, you'd want to look more at punishing the creators of the material rather than those who have consumed it and harmed nobody (other than themselves perhaps).
If there is no cultural understanding of the real people themselves, how they read the text and how they interpret it, any law is based merely on speculation and I must stand firmly against such speculative laws.
Perhaps what you suggest is true. I don't pretend that I have done tons of research on this; I only say that it is not inconceivable to me that fictional CP increases demand for real CP.
> do we apply this standard elsewhere in society?
If there is a demonstrable link between them, sure. The same way real CP is illegal because it creates demand, which causes more CP to be made. Remember, owning CP does not directly harm anyone.
> If there were no research on the link between video games and violence, would you conclude that it is "likely" it indirectly creates a demand for videos of real violence?
No, because video games and videos are completely different things. People who play violent video games don't do it because they like watching violence, they do it because they like playing video games.
> isn't punishing someone for something they might do (access real CP) unjust?
They're not being punished for something they might do, but that they did do. If fictional CP is illegal and someone is in possession of it, then they've committed a crime.
> The same way real CP is illegal because it creates demand, which causes more CP to be made. Remember, owning CP does not directly harm anyone.
The possession of real CP in most places isn't illegal because it creates demand, but because in order for its creation it required the actual abuse of children, and it's a violation of their privacy. Arguments against possession nowadays rely on two factors: the risk of harm (which is frequently not justified) and the violation of privacy. The second is a direct harm. CP is more often than not accessed for free in ways where the original uploaders have no way of knowing how many people consume the material - in the same way that Usenet posts circulate, and in an even more opaque way to BitTorrent. You can't see how many seeders you have on CP sharing sites. Paying for it is dangerous, so most consumers tend to coast on what they can find for free.
>No, because video games and videos are completely different things. People who play violent video games don't do it because they like watching violence, they do it because they like playing video games.
They are different, but the argument could also be made that comic books (in which lolicon hentai is most often published) are different to videos, and Japanese visual novels (which are branded and appreciated as games in their own right) which contain virtual CP are different to videos too. Yet we also would suppose that most people who play violent video games select violent video games for a reason over other non-violent games. The violence is an allure just as much as playing the video game is. For what reason, I don't know - perhaps to experience the limitless world of the imagination, or a break from life. Either way, people who read underage hentai don't do it because they like the idea of children being abuse, they do it because they can find a way to engage their erotic desires in a fictional world - but again, they must also have some reason to select lolicon over other content, and that's accounted for in the history of the status of women in Japan and the concept of moe. We can abstract away from video games and violence too; what do you think about movies that show violence, comic books that show disgusting levels of violence and pain, anime that shows violence...
>They're not being punished for something they might do, but that they did do.
Then the law is unjust - we would be punishing a victimless crime if we outlaw possession of things which cause no harm. Evidently the crime itself can't be located in the mere fact of the violation, since presumably it's a crime for other reasons. If it's a crime because "the viewer might do x, y, z" then it's punishing someone for something they might do through the creation of a law which punishes something they did do. It's simply adding another layer of explanation and indirection to the process, it doesn't automatically add any more justification. That's how the concept of pre-crime works, the pre-crime itself is made into a crime that can be prosecuted. I'm not suggesting that due process is being abandoned here, I'm saying that the rules in deciding what should and shouldn't be crime are being abandoned in favor of speculation.
> I only say that it is not inconceivable to me that fictional CP increases demand for real CP.
On the same token with the same amount of conviction (i.e none) I can say that it's not inconceivable that fictional CP lowers (or doesn't affect) demand for real CP. Now I don't really believe that's true, but I have as much reason to believe that as you do to believe the opposite. Perhaps posting on HN increases the demand for brutal startup founders who abuse their employees.
> To me, it seems totally reasonable to make all sexualized depictions of children illegal for this reason.
Among a huge number of intractable problems with fictional works, this also would make it illegal for many abuse victims to talk about what happened to them.
I disagree. Texts and fictional drawings should not be made illegal, regardless of their content. (I am not so sure that even actual child pornography should be illegal, although maybe it should be illegal to buy and sell actual child pornography, and also illegal to take photographs of them without their permission (even if it isn't for money).)
