* Public transportation in the Bay Area is a shambles, and, in particular, getting between any two points in the (tiny) city of San Francisco involves interaction with the worst bus system in the country.

- Public transportation is bad, unless you've ever been to houston, phoenix, dallas, detroit, los angeles, or anywhere else in the US outside of NYC, Boston, Portland, Chicago, or D.C. As bad as it is, SF's public transport is probably the 5th BEST in the country.

* Housing is spectacularly expensive, which, in hacker teams, simply means you're going to be living in half the space you have now, with no amenities.

- Yes.

* Office space in San Franscisco? I already spent the modifier "spectacular", so let's go with "catastrophically" expensive, meaning: your office won't be in the city, it will be in San Mateo, which despite its relative proximity to the city, will still be an hour and a half commute. Unlucky enough to wind up in Santa Clara? I was. My commute from SOMA often exceeded two hours each way.

- My office space on Howard street is cheaper than what I would pay on the peninsula or in Chicago. I think I lucked out, though.

* Half to 3/4s of your friends are going to live in the South Bay. No matter where you choose to live --- San Francisco or the suburban Mallhalla of the South Bay --- you are going to be 45 minutes to an hour away from anyone you want to visit.

- uhh... i guess if your friends all work at Yahoo!? I don't really see this unless your friends are all married or dorks.

* An ongoing dispute between the dispatchers, the city, and medallion owners keeps taxicabs artificially scarce, so that you are going to wait 20 minutes to catch one on Folsom or downtown.

- this is pretty much true.

* There isn't one good place in the city to see a show, but that doesn't matter, because your favorite band skips San Francisco.

- this is true if your favorite musicians are Jack Johnson or Britney Spears. If you are cool and listen to interesting music there are at least 6 decent mid to large clubs and dozens of smaller spaces. The music scene is better in Manhattan, Brooklyn and Chicago but SF is on par with everywhere else.

* Last call in San Francisco? Earlier than other cities.

- except it is the same as Los Angeles, Portland and Minneapolis, an hour later than Seattle and Boston, and about the same time as when most bars in Chicago now close. If you want to stay out really late your only choice in the US is Manhattan.

* Weather? Choose between "brown" or "wet".

- more like "cold and windy" or "not quite as cold and windy"

* Streets? Laden with human feces and garbage. Am I being hyperbolic? No.

- it sounds like someone's office was close to 6th and Market. SOMA is slimy in parts but gentrification happens and the poo is mostly confined to a few select corridors these days.

Poopy streets to avoid: 6th between Market and Folsom and associated side alleys. Capp between 15th and 17th. The tenderloin bounded by turk, mason, leavenworth and o'farrell.

I modded you up, but:

* Compared to Chicago, Seattle, Portland, Atlanta, or Boston, San Francisco is filthy, both in a "civic pride and basic hygiene" sense, and in a "methadone clinics spewing out mentally ill homeless people contributing to a desperate humanitarian crisis" sense.

* What areas are walkably friendly got that way by gentrifying and bleaching out the culture and neighborhoods from the city. Live in San Francisco? When was your last block party? Can you name your neighbors?

* Strong indie music scene? I guess it depends on what you like --- you could caricature me as a Pitchfork fan. Admittedly, comparing to Chicago, most other cities save New York and Seattle are going to suffer. But go read JWZ's blog about the DNA Lounge and form your own conclusions about how vital and diverse San Francisco's indie venues are.

* If your friends all work at startups, a big chunk of them live in the South Bay, which means you will rarely see them, because facing a 45 minute commute (that's without 101 traffic) at 12:30AM is a strong deterrant to an impromptu night at a bar.

* Your office on Howard Street --- presuming it's a real office --- is not cheaper than what you'd pay in Chicago. Let's compare notes. You first.

I'm skipping the good stuff about San Francisco. Leaving aside the benefits of being surrounded by product managers and QA team leaders, which is a dubious benefit, let me get in:

* You have 7-day-a-week access to solid Dim Sum.

* You live in the US capital of fresh water aquarium suppliers.

* On any Friday or Saturday you are 30 minutes, a cooler, and a couple of logs away from a bonfire on the beaches south of San Francisco.

* If your car can handle, the drive to Half Moon Bay is pretty awesome.

I'm assuming most of the readers here don't have kids. I have two. We won't get in to how much worse the city is going to be for you if you're trying to raise a family.

* Compared to Chicago, Seattle, Portland, Atlanta, or Boston, San Francisco is filthy, both in a "civic pride and basic hygiene" sense, and in a "methadone clinics spewing out mentally ill homeless people contributing to a desperate humanitarian crisis" sense.

- I agree with that, I guess. SF is pretty psychotic.

* What areas are walkably friendly got that way by gentrifying and bleaching out the culture and neighborhoods from the city. Live in San Francisco? When was your last block party? Can you name your neighbors?

In my neighborhood the block party is in September but the SOMA block party is in a couple of weeks. I know all the people who live in my building (there are only 5) and three of my good friends live on the same block.

* Strong indie music scene? I guess it depends on what you like --- you could caricature me as a Pitchfork fan. Admittedly, comparing to Chicago, most other cities save New York and Seattle are going to suffer. But go read JWZ's blog about the DNA Lounge and form your own conclusions about how vital and diverse San Francisco's indie venues are.

- JWZ is grouchy because he was hoping to open up an industrial club but instead has to cater to asian gangsters coming up from Daly City. The scene he is into (industrial dance music) was never big enough to support a club the size of DNA and pretty much died out entirely 10 years ago. Everyone who was into it is now 40+ and doesn't go out anymore. I will admit that I don't go to many shows but the bands that I like (Autechre, TV on the Radio, Cornelius, are a few shows I've seen) seem to play here as often as anywhere else. The LOCAL music scene isn't that awesome, IMO. Most people are trying to be DJs rather than be in bands.

* If your friends all work at startups, a big chunk of them live in the South Bay, which means you will rarely see them, because facing a 45 minute commute (that's without 101 traffic) at 12:30AM is a strong deterrant to an impromptu night at a bar.

I guess that would be true. However most of the friends I have at startups work at startups in the city.

* Your office on Howard Street --- presuming it's a real office --- is not cheaper than what you'd pay in Chicago. Let's compare notes. You first.

We pay $8850 for 9000 square feet. Pre-wired, server room, and physical workspace in the basement (part of our product involves creating physical prototypes)

* I lived in Noe Valley for a couple years and never once even heard of a block party. "The SOMA block party"? Does that go by another name I'd know it by better, like, say, the Folsom Street Fair? That's hardly a "neighborhood" event, but then, SOMA isn't a neighborhood, and hasn't been since it was debrided by "live-work art spaces" (a.k.a. luxury condos).

* JWZ is certainly not a good trendspotter, but you're providing a parody of his experience. He's not complaining that nobody cares about VNV Nation; he's complaining that he can't get permits to host 18+ shows (why do you care? Because lots of touring acts won't book 21+ shows), and chronicling the demise of one music venue after another.

* You are getting a fantastic deal on office space; you're paying approximately what we're paying for finished office space in the Loop (we have a smaller space; our company is split evenly between Chicago and Manhattan).

It is actually a different block party centered around the park between 7th and 8th on Folsom. It caters mainly to the mexican people who live in the area. I've never heard of a block party in Noe, either. My apologies for bringing up race, but I used to rent an art studio in the Bayview and that was the only place in SF that I've seen block parties. I've lived mainly in white yuppie neighborhoods in various parts of the country and never encountered a block party in any of them. There have only been annual "street fairs." The only other place I've seen a proper block party was when I lived on the edge of a puerto rican neighborhood in Brooklyn.

As for the music scene, it depends what you like. If you like House/Electronica SF is great.

I did upvote your post mainly b/c I don't want more people to move in here. hehe.... My major gripe with SF is actually the dating scene, it sucks ass (unless you are a gay guy, which probably will be great). Ratio of guys to girls in most work places is 3/1. It is expensive to live, so girls in early 20s choose to live somewhere else.

There is also very expensive housing (second after manhatan), and potential of earthquakes, but compare to Boston and most of the South is much much better.

And I agree, transportation is kinda sucky. I find myself using a car, even within the city.

BTW, not everybody works in Southbay or peninsula. I actually do work in emeryville (east bay), and the commute is about 25-35 mins, depending on traffic.

But, also many young startups are choosing SF and not peninsula to start up. The problem to find cheaper place will come only when the startup grows a lot, and you really need a lot of space.

The heterosexual dating scene in SF is indeed horrible. The only bittersweet encouragement I can offer young men in the Bay Area is this: If you stay here long enough, you will eventually get lots of dates with attractive young women... when you are 7-12 years older than they are. Just make sure you take it easy on the free soda and pizza. My apologies to all the 23 year old dudes, but 23 year old nerds are just nerds. 30 year old nerds are endearing, or a way to get back at her parents, or an easy mark for free drinks, or, most likely, simply a boyfriend who can afford to not have roommates.

Oh, blogga please.

"Public transportation in the Bay Area is a shambles". Well, you have me there. On the other hand, it sucks in most other large metro areas as well. NYC is the only real exception.

DHH meant the Bay Area and the SV, not San Francisco proper. "San Francisco" is what outside people call the Bay Area because they don't know better.

Housing has been spectacularly expensive everywhere in the US for some time now. We pay a premium for living in a place unlike any other, chock full of natural beauty, culture, and iconoclastic innovation. We also get paid more, and it more or less balances out.

"you are going to be 45 minutes to an hour away from anyone you want to visit" -- that's called life in any big city.

Taxicabs? Say it with me: Bay Area. Not "San Francisco."

"There isn't one good place in the city to see a show" -- the (world-famous) Fillmore, the Great American Music Hall, Slim's, Bimbo's 365 Club, Bottom of the Hill ... that's just off the top of my head, and only in the City. And why would your favorite band skip a metropolitan area of ~13 million people?

"Weather? Choose between 'brown' or 'wet'" -- you know that is not true. Not even close. SF has some of the most amazing, mild weather in the world.

"Streets? Laden with human feces and garbage. Am I being hyperbolic? No." Actually, you are indeed being hyperbolic. There are places in SF, like every major city, where you will find homeless living. There are places in SF where I would be willing to eat off the sidewalk. And we're talking about the Bay Area, not SF alone.

> "you are going to be 45 minutes to an hour away from anyone you want to visit" -- that's called life in any big city.

Hmm? Not my experience in three east coast cities.

Besides the fact that most of your complaints are less than valid, you left out the fact that San Francisco shares, year after year, the status of top restaurant city in the US. (NYC is the other.)

Oh, and there's that wine country about 45 mins. north.

Whatever. You know my theory about fine dining cities? I know you want to. Once you get past a critical mass of high-end restaurants, it stops mattering. Arguments about San Francisco versus Chicago versus New York for restaurants are irrelevant, because unless you have an absurd budget for eating out, you aren't visiting all of them.

So, yes, you have French Laundry (if you count it), and NYC has Per Se, and Chicago has Alinea. Panise vs. Masa vs. Charlie Trotter. If you're a normal person, you're going to run out of places to get 7 courses prix fixe in the Bay Area before I run out of them in Chicago.

Everything else is subjective. You have Mission taquerias. We have Frontera. Yank Sing vs. Arun's. Anything in San Francisco vs. Hot Dougs.

Call whatever city you want "the top restaurant city in the US". Nobody is moving from Chicago or NYC to San Francisco for the food.

Did you read my comment, or do you just not know who Grant Achatz is? SF has hundreds of restaurants. On the high-end, many of them are good (below it, you wind up in North Beach for overpriced tourist Italian). But Chicago does too; so do Seattle and Atlanta.

Name someone who has moved from NYC or Chicago because the restaurant scene in either didn't match up to San Francisco. I'll take your word for it that that person exists.